The Evolution of a Passive Investor with Justin Colvin

In this episode, Justin Colvin, insurance entrepreneur and seasoned LP shares how he built a passive income portfolio across real estate, oil & gas, and private credit.

From his first $15K investments to losing capital in a failed fund, Justin opens up about the hard lessons, red flags, and winning strategies he's learned along the way.

The Invest Clearly Podcast - Episode 5

Guest: Justin Colvin

[00:00:00] Justin: Don't come into this industry thinking you're going to be a passive investor and crush it. Just because you crushed it as a surgeon doesn't mean you're going to crush it in multifamily. You might get crushed. Focus on being a good sponsor and executing—that should be the focus, not being the biggest on social media or having all these other ways of monetizing the industry.

My big thing now is oil and gas because they're looking at returns of 25 to 30% a year. Eleven thousand people a day turn 65, and about 4,000 turn 85. These people have to have somewhere to stay. What part of passive investing do you think needs to die?

[00:00:32] Pat: Investors and operators, welcome back to the Invest Clearly Podcast. In this episode, we sit down with Justin, a passive investor with exposure to multifamily, private credit, and oil and gas. He shares how he approaches sponsor evaluation, what he looks for in reporting after the deal closes, and how fee structures and communication shape his experience.

We also discuss capital calls, budgeting allocations, and reflections on how exit timing has impacted deal outcomes. If you're an LP thinking about how to build conviction beyond proformas, this episode offers a candid look at one investor's decision-making framework. Let's get into it.

The views expressed in this podcast are those of the individual guests and do not reflect the opinions or recommendations of Invest Clearly. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered investment advice. The appearance of a sponsor or investor on this show does not constitute an endorsement or a warning. Invest Clearly is an objective and neutral platform. Always do your own due diligence before making any investment decisions.

[00:01:27] Pat: Justin, thank you very much for joining me. Just to kick things off, do you want to tell us a little bit about your background and what you do? Are you a full-time LP? Do you have work or business outside of your investing? Tell us a little bit about yourself.

[00:01:41] Justin: My name's Justin Colvin. I live in St. Augustine, Florida. I'm married with three kids and a dog, so pretty busy with the day-to-day of raising kids. For my occupation, I own a small insurance agency called the Medicare Help Desk. We're independent and work with about 30 different companies. We basically assist seniors with their Medicare health coverage.

They don't pay us a fee—it's just like any other insurance market where we're paid by the insurance company that we represent. It's a great business model because we have a lot of residual income. As long as you have a customer on the books and keep them happy, you get paid year after year. So you have this annuity snowball that builds up from a large client base. A lot of our business is referral-based now.

We live a nice lifestyle, but we're not flamboyant. We have a lot of excess savings, so I'm looking for ways to put this to work to maybe one day escape the employment realm. I like what I'm doing—I love it—but I love my family more and want more free time. If I can create an alternative passive income source from these passive vehicles, that's been the goal.

I first got involved with passive investing around 2021, right around the middle of COVID. It's been about four and a half years now, and we've probably done 15 to 20 different deals. The very first deal I did was a grocery-anchored strip plaza—like a neighborhood grocery store with a Whole Foods or Home Depot, a couple main anchor tenants, and junior tenants. I did three or four deals with them.

I got into multifamily and did some self-storage. We've done mortgage notes. My big thing now is oil and gas because it fits a lot more of our goals. I've done a lot with Eckard—love Eckard. I've actually posted all my reviews on your site, giving kudos for their world-class transparency and communication.

For me, it has the big tax benefit. A lot of these passive deals promote passive depreciation, but that's great only if you can use it. Many of us in my space—doctors, lawyers, dentists, business owners—can't use it. We're not real estate professionals, so we can only use that depreciation against passive income. A lot of deals lately have not been spending any passive income. They've been losing money or asking for capital calls. You have this huge ball of depreciation and passive losses that just gets carried forward. It's not effective—you can't use it immediately.

Whereas oil and gas working interest is a loophole from back in the eighties. Any amount you invest in what they call intangible drilling costs—the IDCs, which can be up to 80% of the first year investment—you can take right against your active income, any form of income. So it's an immediate tax benefit. If you're in a 37% bracket, you just saved 37%.

Obviously you have to do your due diligence. You don't want to invest with an unscrupulous sponsor, and there are a lot of them out there. Oil and gas is the wild west. There are definitely scams and bad actors where they mark the deals up two or three times. You're involved in a deal, but you're going to have very low cash flow because the promote is so high. You have to really do your due diligence.

But to me, it's a great space if you can find a quality operator with ethics, transparency, and a proven track record. You're getting the tax benefits and there's a lot of money to be made in drilling.

[00:04:59] Pat: We're core on real estate private equity, but we're seeing more and more real estate-adjacent asset classes coming into play. Oil and gas has been quite a bit of demand from LPs. Car washes, we had a marina sponsor recently get active, assisted living—it's almost like these balance sheet-based, operational-based real estate things. Oil and gas seems to be really the topic of conversation for quite a few LPs right now, making that shift. Pretty interesting.

[00:05:31] Justin: The tax benefits are huge, and some of these wells will pay out in three or four years. You're looking at returns of 25 to 30% a year, and then you get the tax benefit the first year alone. Literally, you can de-risk that deal tremendously. In the first 12 months, if you have a quality sponsor, between the tax benefits and the first year production, you could be looking at a 60-70% total return in that one year.

What real estate deal will give me that? Zero. They will not do that because the tax benefits are kicked off in the future. Typically, your real estate is maybe 3-4% cash flow year one, and it just slowly creeps up. A lot of it's on the backend when they sell, if they can sell. Interest rates are tough right now, so it's been a challenging market.

I think a lot of easy money was made from 2017 to about 2022, and it's just been ho-hum the last couple years. I think we just have to get through this cycle and see if things turn back around. But in the interim, oil and gas is really great.

I also love private credit. Private credit's another great opportunity. You're not going to kill it, but you're not going to lose money typically. You get a steady 9 to 12% with a variety of great sponsors. You've got quite a few of them on your website—PPR has been phenomenal, B Quest is another, Aspen Funds. I think all of them are top shelf when it comes to mortgage notes and private credit type funds.

[00:06:45] Pat: Are you still looking at some of the core real estate—the multifamily, the storage—or are you strictly focused on the other ones you just mentioned?

[00:06:52] Justin: I do get lots of deal flow. I'm on a bunch of different email lists from different sponsors, and I like having the deal flow even if I'm not going to invest right away. I think just looking at it and evaluating deals makes you more shrewd. It makes you that much sharper. You can create a buy box essentially from looking at lots of deals.

When I first got going, I was investing on equity multiple and reality mogul—these crowdfunding sites. I think they get the crappier deals personally because if you're a great sponsor, you don't necessarily need to rely on them to raise capital. They have their own fees, technology fees, platform fees. Why not just raise your own money? So by default, they get more second- or third-tier type deals.

But you also have lower minimums. When I was getting going, I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't want to risk $50,000 to $100,000 per deal when I really didn't know what I was doing. It's better to lose $10,000 or $15,000—mess around with a smaller amount and get your feet wet. I think it's great for somebody who's new, these crowdsourcing sites, just to play around before you start with the bigger minimums.

Most of the quality sponsors are $50,000 minimum, some are $100,000. That's a big chunk. If you're worth a million bucks, that's still 10%. If you're worth half a million, it's still a big chunk of your net worth in one deal. If you're not very experienced, you could easily mess that up.

But yeah, real estate is still a core focus. I'm very interested in healthcare—I'm in the healthcare space in a way, dealing with seniors. I know every day from metrics that 11,000 people a day turn 65, and about 4,000 turn 85. We're an aging country. These people have to have somewhere to stay.

I love the senior living space, so that's one thing I'm trying to find—maybe a good sponsor with a great track record. I think that's a fantastic way to invest. There's a lot of margins in that, and you're providing a need. There's a big need for that.

[00:08:38] Pat: I haven't educated myself extremely deep in the senior living space, but even locally, my grandfather applied to a place with a four-year wait list, and we live in a small area. It's crazy. There's a supply and demand issue right there.

[00:08:51] Justin: A lot of them are terrible. My mother-in-law is in rough shape—she's 71, not that old, but she's in a wheelchair with mobility issues. You look at the reviews where she's located, and they're all terrible. There are very few that are actually a quality place to live with good food and good staff.

If you can really create a nice senior living environment that's quality with good workers, good food, good staff, entertainment, and just a nice place that people want to live—imagine if the terrible places have a waiting list, it's nuts. I think there's a ton of opportunity in that space for the next few decades. A lot of private equity is big on that too. Blackstone and all these big private equity companies are involved because they see the trends as well.

[00:09:35] Pat: When you're looking at these operation-based real estate investments—the oil and gas, the senior living, the private credit—is your underwriting model different than if it was multifamily? Is there a level beyond, like a next level you go into in terms of due diligence with these types of investments?

[00:09:54] Justin: A lot of my due diligence is really based on reviews and talking to other investors and track record. I'm not a big details guy. I do look at the underwriting, but I'm not an expert on underwriting, so I probably wouldn't be as well-versed in what questions to ask or what metrics to look at.

I do want fixed-rate debt if at all possible. I think everybody wants that now after what's happened with all the floating rate debt. That's a big thing, and a long-term time horizon. A lot of sponsors want to return money quickly—like a three, four, or five-year hold. Nothing wrong with that, but that's where they get in trouble because it's a very compressed window. What if the rehabs don't go as quickly as expected? What if rates head higher? What if you can't raise rents like you're anticipating? That's all been major problems for multifamily.

But if you have a long horizon—10 years—that's not as big of a deal. You can let the cycle bottom and naturally turn up because you don't have such a short-term approach to it.

I use your site and a couple others, but having reviews—there are some big names out there in the industry and you would never know it. I was so surprised. One in particular is huge on social media, like the godfather of real estate. If you ask him, he acts like he's never had bad deals. But he's had several bad deals, capital calls, and complete losses, and you would never know it. He's on stages speaking. There are several people like this. I think they're great marketers, and they meant to do well, but there are blowups.

They're not going to tell you about all that. You have to find it out yourself unless you ask the right questions. To me, relying on other people—I dodged a bullet by using Invest Clearly. I saw two or three other people posting "don't invest with this sponsor" and "don't believe the hype." There are quite a few like that.

A lot of them I had massive respect for. I thought they were huge on data, very sharp, very shrewd, great background. But they're not so great at running multifamily. It doesn't always translate the same, but you're not necessarily going to know that without feedback from others.

Reviews and talking to other investors—that's really tough. Just ask the sponsor, "Hey, do you have a couple of investors I could talk to?" But even then, are they really going to give you the ones that have had deal failures? Of course not. They're going to give you the ones that will praise their virtues. You have to do your own vetting outside of the sponsors.

I look at it—maybe it's a bad way of looking at it—but whatever the sponsor tells me, I assume they're lying or the deal's going to fail, because I've had deals that have failed. I've had a complete wipe-out on one thing, which was the ATM fund. I'll share that—lots of people have been impacted negatively by the ATM debacle, which raised almost a billion dollars of capital. A lot of people were burned by that, but it had a great track record for years.

You really have to do your due diligence and not trust blindly. As Reagan said, "Trust but verify." Listen to what they have to say and take it in, but go do your own due diligence and assume everything's a no unless I can convincingly determine it's a yes.

[00:12:38] Pat: That was one of the core reasons and one of our core value propositions. I say it on every podcast—the past few years, we really mistook social influence for social proof. The people on stage who are marketers don't necessarily translate to great operators, but some of them do. It's difficult to tell the difference.

To your point, you've got to get outside the influence of the person who has the most to gain financially if you commit to them. That's where your information's obviously going to be biased towards positivity. Not saying it's wrong every time, but you've really got to get outside that influence of the person that's trying to sell you. It is a sales role. People call it investor relations, but it is a sales role.

[00:13:22] Justin: That's true. Every role is sales.

[00:13:23] Pat: It's funny—I always thought that was funny in the financial world. You put fancy titles on everything, but really you're an account manager and you're in sales. That's what it is.

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[00:14:12] Pat: You mentioned a little bit about your deal flow earlier and your buy box. Where is your deal flow coming from? For investors looking for greater deal flow, how long would you say it took you to go from the Realty Mogul small investments to the level you are today, from an experience and timeline perspective?

[00:14:33] Justin: If you're brand new and know nothing about passive investing—you're used to financial planners, stocks, mutual funds, the traditional way (that's why they call it Left Field Investors Group—we're off in left field, doing something totally different)—I would say start small. That means you're not going to be investing with big sponsors that have huge reputations, which is a negative because they're the best in breed, but they're also going to command $100,000 minimums, maybe $75,000. That's a lot to invest for a first-timer who doesn't really know what they're doing. They could do everything right and still lose—that's just investing.

You're probably better off focused on some of these crowdsourcing sites, but before you even invest (which I should have done), don't be so eager to jump in. Even some of these crowdsourcing sites have failed—several of them. I was involved in Peer Street, which was a lending platform where supposedly you're just lending and you're first to get paid—you're on the credit side. They filed for bankruptcy out of nowhere. All your money was tied up. A year later they released some of the capital they held on file, but that was a complete blowup.

There are several others that have done this. You have to be extra careful because a lot of their revenue is made from listing investments and the fees they generate. Do they really have your best interest? They're just a platform. They want as much stuff on their site as possible. Obviously they're going to try to vet some of the deals, but they're going to let them go through because why would they not?

But I think it's good just to look at them, even if you don't invest. Just watch the deal flow. You'll get all kinds of deals—campgrounds, RV syndicates, anything you can think of can be syndicated. Movies—people try to syndicate a guy or gal getting together saying "Hey, we should produce a movie. You want to invest in that?" It's going to have a high failure rate.

Just look at the deal flow, look at the terms, do one-on-ones with the sponsors. Ask, "Can I speak to some of your former investors?" Ask hard questions. I didn't do that at first, and I'm a sales guy myself—I run an insurance agency. I'm a happy guy with an abundant mindset.

I've actually read that the people who do well at investing are typically the ones who are more doubtful and more skeptical—kind of glass-half-empty people. They're better investors because they ask the better questions. Someone like me is going to be more trusting, laugh, joke—I'm probably an easy sale. That Justin guy didn't ask any of the tough questions. That's on me—that's just my personality. My personality has positives—I'm good at building a business and getting clients—but that same skillset doesn't always translate to investing. It's actually a detriment. You need someone like an underwriter who thinks, "How can this deal go bad? How can this fail?"

Tough questions are a big thing, and definitely asking to speak to other investors, but really finding information outside of what the sponsor is telling you. They're only going to tell you their best virtues. It's like dating—you're not going to go out with someone and they're going to tell you how terrible they are. Every time you talk to a sponsor, that's kind of what it is. They're going to whitewash the failures and accentuate all their successes. You can't help it—they need your money. They have employees to pay, payroll to run.

You really want to get information as much as you can from other vetted individuals. Having something like Invest Clearly, being part of that, being able to talk to other investors, network there, look at reviews—that's massive. That's a big win because now you're going to get actual candid information from other investors about their experience outside the purview of the sponsor.

[00:17:48] Pat: Everything you mentioned about yourself, I have actually brought up about myself in other podcasts. I'm the same way—I'm an easy sell. My partner probably wants to rip my face off every time I talk to him because I'll get pitched new software and I'm like, "We need this. This is the greatest thing I've ever heard about." Same thing with features—somebody recommends a feature for us and I'm like, "Oh, we need to implement this now." It fires me up. I'm a social person, very trusting, an easy sell. I needed something to supplement my shortcomings when it comes to underwriting.

[00:18:31] Justin: Exactly. I've actually been asking my wife on a lot of deals too. I think women are sometimes a little more shrewd. Guys tend to be a little more risky and plunge forward. Women are a little more reserved in nature, which might keep you out of some deals, but it could also keep you out of bad deals.

I remember when I did the ATM fund, she was like, "You sure this is the right move?" She had some hesitation—it just didn't sound like it made sense. I'm like, "Babe, no, they've been paying for 12 years straight. Credible track record. They've raised almost a billion dollars of capital. They have all these other people raising money for them. They've supposedly had the best due diligence from major private equity that has vetted all these companies."

It turns out a lot of it was a Ponzi. They had ATM machines, but only about a quarter of what they claimed, many of which were not even operational. The guy was using investor money just to live off of—it was a complete fraud. But look at Bernie Madoff. He was the former chairman of the NASDAQ, had all the social circles, had big banks and hedge funds invested with him. He had a lot of money, raised a lot of money—complete scam. It didn't start out like that, but it evolved into that.

Don't feel like just because you had success—a lot of doctors are arrogant. It's one of the industries that has a lot of pride, the medical profession in general. Don't come into this industry thinking, "I'm going to be a passive investor. I crushed it as a surgeon. I'm going to crush it in multifamily." Well, you might get crushed because you don't know the ways.

The PPMs can be written in such a way to hide fees. The PPMs are big for a reason—not to protect us, but to protect the GP. They're written by corporate attorneys so you don't sue them. There's a lot of room for error. Even the best investors—that's one thing I've found from all the conferences and events I've been to—even the very best have all had a bad deal or two or three. It's just part of this space, and you have to really be shrewd. You really do. Take your time.

Human nature's not like that—you're going to want to move forward—but you need to pause and do your due diligence and try to make the best decision. There's a lot of room for unethical behavior. That's why it's private investments—it's not publicly traded stock. When you're saying you're accredited, you're saying "I can lose this money. I'm affluent. I understand these sophisticated deals."

I feel like legally, that's why a lot of crooks are attracted to this business, or unethical people, because they know the SEC's not going to really prosecute us as much because they're accredited investors. As long as it looks somewhat decent, it just attracts the wrong people. Obviously there are a lot of good businesses out there, a lot of good sponsors, but it does attract the dirt bags, unfortunately. You have to be more careful. You just have to be.

[00:21:06] Pat: I actually just created a LinkedIn post on this recently where an LP had reached out to me and said, "Hey, I'm not investing in this industry anymore because I got smoked, I got wiped out. I bought into the marketing campaign." We're in this world where there are great operators, but there are also grifters, and we're at a time where it's very difficult to tell the difference between the two. You kind of bought into the confirmation bias, bought into the social circles, bought into the influence, but it's tough. It's really tough.

I always tell people that regulation does not equal transparency. This is a regulated industry. I've got some thoughts on the SEC's whole accredited investor guidelines on both sides. I've met people worth tens of millions of dollars who are some of the dumbest people I've ever met in my life, but they got successful in business and have no business being in investing. Then I've met people that haven't met that net worth who are extremely intelligent and risk-averse and can underwrite way better than a lot of these other people. It's super interesting.

You mentioned earlier you started passive investing around the 2020-2021 timeframe, which is where a lot of fallout is coming from right now. How is your portfolio currently performing? I know you mentioned you had some good ones and took a bath on one. Overall, how are you currently doing?

[00:22:16] Justin: The ATM was the biggest debacle. I got a few distributions on that, but it's probably been about a 90% loss. Some got no distributions and lost all of it. Others invested in the very beginning, so they had made money for quite some time. But that's been the worst investment thus far.

I did have one that did really well—it was in the industrial category. I'm actually hunting more for industrial. That's one of the best commercial real estate asset classes. It's white hot. It's hard to find occupancy. There's very low vacancy in that sector. They have really good pricing power for rent increases on the GP side, and you usually have A+ credit. You have large organizations renting this flex industrial space and they can't find it. They can't build it fast enough.

That one actually performed above proforma. It was supposed to be three years—they exited in two years. It was a lease-up, and believe it or not, it was through Equity Multiple. It was one of their deals, but it was great—it was a home run. They made about 50% return in two years. I didn't invest a lot in that deal—I did about $25,000—but still it was a great win because it was 50% return in two years. They were projecting less than that in three years. It was just an industrial lease-up in Tampa, and it was rented to PODS, the moving storage company. I love the market—it's massive hypergrowth, and industrial's white hot. PODS is a great product. I feel like a lot of people use them to move. It was a great sponsor with a great track record.

The multiFamily investments have been okay. I have one that's supposed to exit soon—they've already sold and they're going to be doing a distribution, so that will make money. I had another one that failed—it was a hotel conversion out in Phoenix. They were supposed to convert the hotel into multifamily, but it never materialized the way they expected. They had some theft of supplies at the property and really couldn't turn units fast enough. That was a wipeout—well, not a wipeout. I lost money. I only did $15,000. It was a smaller deal and was one of my first deals, which I'm glad about. Some of these deals that went bad were my first deals, and you don't want to invest a bunch of money when you're new to the space. You want to invest small increments—$10,000, $15,000, $20,000—and play around with a smaller amount.

The best performing thus far has probably been the industrial, then the mineral rights on the oil and gas side, and then working interest. That's what I really focus on. And private credit—private credit, if you have the right sponsor, is just like the tortoise. It's slow and steady. You're not going to kill it, but you can make 9 to 12% depending on the sponsor, and it's just like clockwork.

The thesis makes sense to me because you're first to get paid—you're the lender. A lot of these are first position mortgages, so they have a huge cushion. They're usually buying these big tapes where they'll get hundreds or thousands of mortgages, and they're buying them like the bank. These people have already originally non-performed—they're not paying—but they're getting such a deal. You might be paying 60 cents on the dollar, but that's just from the mortgage balance from what they're paying to the balance. Then you have the equity in the home. Many times the home is worth 20-30% more than that.

Look at the cushion you have—it's massive. Not that you want to foreclose on these things, but if you have to, if they can't reperform, if you can't get the mortgages to reperform, you have an asset that might be worth $200,000 on a house. Maybe you bought the balance on the mortgage for $60,000 or $70,000. You're not really going to lose. Even in a crappy real estate market, you could fire-sale that house and get your money back out of it and usually make more. So you win or you win—which one? As long as you buy right, it's really hard to lose in first position mortgages. You're just not going to make a ton of money, but sometimes that's better.

I did the ATM because they were promoting 24 to 26% plus depreciation. Guess what? You wiped out, or mostly wiped out. You would have been better off just doing mortgage notes.

I like private credit a lot. You get your principal back, so you're usually investing for two or three year holds. It's very definitive. There's no "oh well, we haven't done all the rehab, we have to refinance our floating rate debt." No, it's just a product you buy into the fund. It's very definitive—2, 3, 4 year timeframe. We're going to pay you monthly at this time. You can redeem and boom, you can just either keep going with it.

I love private credit. To me, it's just slow and steady. It's almost like a CD. Obviously it's not guaranteed, but it's very high likelihood of getting paid, very low likelihood of the deal blowing up, and there's a lot of cushion, a lot of margin for safety. I think that's a great strategy to put a big chunk—if you're going to do passive investing, a big chunk of that could be private credit. A lot of Tiger 21, those super affluent investors—that's a big portion of their allocation: private credit.

[00:26:25] Pat: Interesting. Very cool. I didn't know that. Well cool, Justin, I know we're winding down here. I guess one question I ask on every episode: what part of passive investing do you think needs to die?

[00:26:35] Justin: I would say the coaching. It seems like a lot of the unscrupulous sponsors, the ones that maybe haven't done so well—to me, they're more just monetizing the industry. The top shelf sponsors don't really do coaching per se. They don't have time. They're busy running all their properties and buying new ones. That's the core of their business.

But hey, "I can teach you how to be like me. You can be a GP. You don't need to work a job. You should be a GP and you can raise your own money." There was a lot of that—it wasn't as prevalent now, but it was really big in 2019-2020. It was so common. You have these basically coaches raising money from their students and doing deals. Then you have a lot of them that went out and did their own funds. Some of the failures have come from those students because they're just learning—it's like a crash course. "I'm going to teach you how to be a syndicator in a few months, and then off you go and you can raise money and live the high life."

I don't like seeing that because to me, they don't have the best interest at heart for the LP. It's just more about how they can personally benefit from the industry as much as possible. "I'm going to raise deal flow, I'm going to be a coach, I'm going to have private mentoring sessions." It's like every facet of how they can generate income off the LP industry or the LPs, the investors, and all the big social media stuff.

Obviously there are a lot of guys and gals on social media doing self-promotion, but just focus on—instead of the marketing side—focus on being a good operator. Focus on being a good sponsor and executing and delivering for your investors. That's what should be the focus, not being the biggest on social media, not having all these other ways of monetizing the industry.

[00:28:08] Pat: Awesome. Well, Justin, thank you very much. Anything else you want to share that we didn't get to before we hop off?

[00:28:13] Justin: No, I just appreciate the time today. It's been a pleasure getting to know you and I really appreciate what you've done with the Invest Clearly platform. I love the interface—it's very clean and just very easy to find information and get reviews. It's been a very big help. I've used it a lot of times to dodge bullets or to emphasize my decision and help solidify that. So it's been very helpful.

[00:28:31] Pat: Awesome. Well, thank you again for joining. It's nice to finally get to have some face time with you. If people want to connect with you, where can people find more about you?

[00:28:40] Justin: You can give me a call. Our toll-free office number is 804-142-0044. Our website, if you need help with Medicare—if you're a senior, which a lot of folks probably in the passive space are—it's just The Medicare Help Desk. So themedicarehelpdesk.com, and there's a contact form. You can hit me up there. But yeah, it's been a pleasure.

[00:28:59] Pat: Awesome. Thank you, Justin.

[00:29:02] Justin: Thank you. All right. Thanks, Pat. See you.

[00:29:03] Pat: Yeah.